Another Approach
Question:
> I’ve always wondered why I’ve never ran across a discussion of an > "Augmentation" approach to alternative energy. I’m sure it’s done, but it > must not be real popular.
Well, it’s fine as long as the grid doesn’t go down, you’re basically using the grid as your storage device. (not directly of course, but as a "get credit for what you put in, pay for what you take back" kind of storage. > When the sun shines or the wind blows, your power bills could be a little to > a lot lower. Best of all, batteries and massive DC current would be taken > out of the equation, and dependability would be very high.
Right there is the problem, I think. One of the benefits of the "bank of batteries" kind of system is that it’s effectively a large UPS system, giving you power when the utility goes down. Around here, my utility drops power many times a year, and a grid-tie system wouldn’t give me the dependability I’d get from having my own battery bank. Still have to have an inverter (in this case, a synchronous inverter to match phases), so the only expense and complexity savings is in the battery (and of course the box for them which is apparently very complex from what I’ve read here?). > I know there’s nothing new here, but I don’t remember it being discussed > specifically. Aside from not having emergency power backup, what’s the down > side of power augmentation?
I think that’s the only one I can see, but it’s a biggie. If it fails to meet 1 of the 3 design criteria, that’s pretty much a non-starter, for me. If it’s just a "Hey, let’s throw up a turbine or three and a few panels to cut down on the bills", sure, no problem. Depends on what you’re after. Dave Hinz
Response:
Utility companys usualy dont pay you what it is worth they charge maybe 4 times more than they pay. But different states have different laws. It would be smart for US conservation for them to play fair. But they are in the business of making money and need to be forced.
Response:
> Utility companys usualy dont pay you what it is worth they charge maybe > 4 times more than they pay. But different states have different laws. It > would be smart for US conservation for them to play fair. But they are > in the business of making money and need to be forced.
It’s, as you say, a state-by-state thing. Talk to your legislators, and get ‘em to do their jobs & fix it if your state doesn’t make such provisions.
Response:
This is called grid tie, and it’s quite common. Search on "netmetering" different states have different rules on how much you get paid, or even if you are allowed. — Steve Spence http://www.beavercreekconsulting.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve always wondered why I’ve never ran across a discussion of an > "Augmentation" approach to alternative energy. I’m sure it’s done, but it > must not be real popular. > Here’s what I mean: > The power produced by solar panels or wind power would be fed directly into > the grid. Period. No battery storage or huge inverters. A small inverter and > a light duty grid tie would be all that would be needed. > When the sun shines or the wind blows, your power bills could be a little to > a lot lower. Best of all, batteries and massive DC current would be taken > out of the equation, and dependability would be very high. Maintenance would > be almost zero . It would possibly pay for itself within the owner’s > lifetime. Placing a small Watt hour meter inline with the utility company > meter and keeping track of monthly savings would be fun. It would encourage > you to get efficient lights and appliances too. > I know there’s nothing new here, but I don’t remember it being discussed > specifically. Aside from not having emergency power backup, what’s the down > side of power augmentation? > Bob
Response:
: > : > I’ve always wondered why I’ve never ran across a discussion of an : > "Augmentation" approach to alternative energy. I’m sure it’s done, but it : > must not be real popular. : : Well, it’s fine as long as the grid doesn’t go down, you’re basically : using the grid as your storage device. (not directly of course, but : as a "get credit for what you put in, pay for what you take back" kind of : storage. : : > When the sun shines or the wind blows, your power bills could be a little to : > a lot lower. Best of all, batteries and massive DC current would be taken : > out of the equation, and dependability would be very high. : : Right there is the problem, I think. One of the benefits of the "bank of : batteries" kind of system is that it’s effectively a large UPS system, giving : you power when the utility goes down. Around here, my utility drops power : many times a year, and a grid-tie system wouldn’t give me the dependability : I’d get from having my own battery bank. Still have to have an inverter : (in this case, a synchronous inverter to match phases), so the only expense : and complexity savings is in the battery (and of course the box for them which : is apparently very complex from what I’ve read here?). : : > I know there’s nothing new here, but I don’t remember it being discussed : > specifically. Aside from not having emergency power backup, what’s the down : > side of power augmentation? : : I think that’s the only one I can see, but it’s a biggie. If it fails to : meet 1 of the 3 design criteria, that’s pretty much a non-starter, for me. : If it’s just a "Hey, let’s throw up a turbine or three and a few panels : to cut down on the bills", sure, no problem. Depends on what you’re after. : : Dave Hinz Googleing for "Battery Box" with 94,800 hits found these winners: There are many more. For a home built box. http://www.independent-power.com/battery_box.html Electric car battery box: http://www.jerryrig.com/convert/step10.html Power vent for a battery box: http://www.solarseller.com/battery_box_power_vent_by_zephyr_industrie… Cover materials for Battery boxes: http://www.msha.gov/TECHSUPP/ACC/lists/18bboxin.pdf
Response:
: : >This is called grid tie, and it’s quite common. : : That’s what I said. : : >Search on "netmetering" : >different states have different rules on how much you get paid, or even if : >you are allowed. : : Yea, I know that too. : : I was fishing for the benefits of eliminating batteries. Since most grids : are very reliable, I’m wondering if they are even needed. : Bob No benefits…. Makes you totally dependant upon the grid, which you "Think" is really reliable, but which in a serious crisis is simply turned off! For Instance, Major storms, earthquakes, wild fires, civil disorder, and if the central authority decides there is not enough reserve for government use!
Response:
>>No benefits…. Makes you totally dependant upon the grid, which >you "Think" is really reliable, but which in a serious crisis is >simply turned off! For Instance, Major storms, earthquakes, wild >fires, civil disorder, and if the central authority decides there >is not enough reserve for government use! >So 280 million people are living dangerously? I don’t think so. In 50 years, >I’ve only lived without electricity about a week, and it didn’t hurt me at >all.
I don’t get it Bob. 1. You know you can go grid-tie with a suitable inverter. 2. You know that batteries are optional, and that it’s up to the individual to decide whether they want independent power in the event of a grid outage, or not. What deep issue are we missing here? -=s
Response:
> >So 280 million people are living dangerously? I don’t think so. In 50 years, >I’ve only lived without electricity about a week, and it didn’t hurt me at >all.
This is too narrow a view. You need to imagine that you have put in a hard day, you and your kids are all settled down, the power goes off and you are not even aware of it. Kid wakes up screaming and you have no idea how serious this is. You leap out of bed into the big dark, find the cat sleeping on the rug where your foot landed, and break several sharp objects in your fall. Are you not hurt by the power failure? And I have lived with power failure during the ice storm. We did have candles and plenty of flash lights. Our toilets did not freeze. But the house got seriously cold. Made sleep difficult. A long enough lack of power in mid winter can be a killer. It is easy to underrate this stuff if we think we are somehow tough and we can take it. We aren’t. We need that power and it can become life and death very fast without our machismo having anything to do with it.
Response:
: : : >No benefits…. Makes you totally dependant upon the grid, which : >you "Think" is really reliable, but which in a serious crisis is : >simply turned off! For Instance, Major storms, earthquakes, wild : >fires, civil disorder, and if the central authority decides there : >is not enough reserve for government use! : : So 280 million people are living dangerously? I don’t think so. In 50 years, : I’ve only lived without electricity about a week, and it didn’t hurt me at : all. : Bob Gee, No one said you couldn’t have an opinion! What an opinion! I never said anything about danger! The definition of that is a relative thing. However during a wild fire or a 4.5 to 5+ earthquake the power goes off until they inspect all the distribution system, in some cases many days, often over a week. Good grief it has gone off for over a week because a water main burst and flooded the transformer vaults! We have high winds, which unlike tornados are broad in the impact, often blowing trucks off the freeway, and breaking power lines or poles. all cause someone to loose power. I just heard on the local radio that one area in NE los Angles had been without electric for over ten days, about 60,000 people. Reliable, sure! How reliable? Unpredictable!
Response:
: : So 280 million people are living dangerously? IF your breathing, your living dangerously in some peoples opinion. And it isn’t 280 million, it is the entire earth, all the animals and plants on it. So what is so new about that?
Response:
I’m less than 2 hours from Chicago I’ve live here for 7 weeks and been without power for a total of 9 &%$(*& DAYS. I went home and picked up my generator last weekend and while I was gone the power went off for 5 hours again. mikell
Response:
> Utility companys usualy dont pay you what it is worth they charge maybe > 4 times more than they pay. But different states have different laws. It > would be smart for US conservation for them to play fair. But they are > in the business of making money and need to be forced.
‘Play fair’?? Gee, who strings the lines to your home? Who sends out crews to repair lines at all hours? If you meet the power company half-way and agree to pay the costs of maintaining the lines half-way between you and the nearest 115kV transmission line, I’ll bet they’d be glad to give you more for your solar-electric. Would you be willing to pay ‘replacement-power’ costs when the clouds roll by? Point is, the rates they charge you are for more than just the energy involved. So most power companies want more for the electricity they deliver than what the raw energy is worth. This has been discussed ad-nauseum in the past. Look for threads discussing net-metering. Figuring the exact cost breakdown and what the electricity is worth is not a simple thing. Solar is usually at peak times (worth more). It doesn’t go *all* the way back to the generating station, but neither does it *just* go to your next door neighbor. What does a block of houses with grid-tie PV do to the fault analysis when a line is downed by a car accident? Many, many more things that just the cost of the energy. daestrom
Response:
Maybe the problem is dependancy on electricity, not the instability of local grids. A 5 hour power outage shouldn’t reduce anyone to a raving lunatic… or are all those panic films made by americains based on reality? Do you all run around like a bunch of lost sheep, drive of roads, scream, sob, and trample people in crowds at the slightest weird event? There I was thinking that these films were all grossely overexagerated! I’ll have to revise my opinion of americans and their ability to deal with out-of-the-ordinary events. If you live in a climate that is so cold that you have a health risk everytime the electricity goes down, maybe you should integrate alternative heating methods – what about a log fire and a couple of mattresse so that you can sleep in the lounge room with the fire? Or a slow-combustion stove (withou an electric fan) That way you can heat and cook when the power is down. Even in totally urban areas, you can have a couple of bags of logs in the garage in case of emergencies, can’t you? We dont’t "need" that power, we "want" it to be comfortable and because we have become addicted to it. Mel Fred B. McGalliard a
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